tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28755195.post2113020391183508330..comments2023-09-25T04:26:51.568-06:00Comments on The Barefoot Bum: Atheist or AgnosticLarry Hamelinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08788697573946266404noreply@blogger.comBlogger29125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28755195.post-20436870616780287222008-12-13T23:43:00.000-07:002008-12-13T23:43:00.000-07:00A useful label is "Tooth Fairy agnostic" (see Dawk...A useful label is "Tooth Fairy agnostic" (see Dawkin's TED talk).<BR/><BR/>It implies that, while you accept the logical possibility that a supernatural god might exist, you rate the probability as being roughly equal to that of the person who removes teeth from under pillows and replaces them with money actually being a 3 inch high winged supernatural female.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28755195.post-22245359803764619762008-10-17T07:41:00.000-06:002008-10-17T07:41:00.000-06:00T4T: Deism is indistinguishable from atheism.T4T: Deism is indistinguishable from atheism.Larry Hamelinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08788697573946266404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28755195.post-14210619550338675512008-10-17T07:07:00.000-06:002008-10-17T07:07:00.000-06:00Sorceror......You forgot one.....Deist.Sorceror......<BR/><BR/>You forgot one.....<BR/><BR/>Deist.Tit for Tathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09454132514796693591noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28755195.post-61742990391095681042008-10-11T20:49:00.000-06:002008-10-11T20:49:00.000-06:00miller: my apologies for the misunderstanding.<B>miller:</B> my apologies for the misunderstanding.Larry Hamelinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08788697573946266404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28755195.post-74854057625608401242008-10-11T16:00:00.000-06:002008-10-11T16:00:00.000-06:00Barefoot Bum, my previous comment was in response ...Barefoot Bum, my previous comment was in response to the_world_in_my_eyes, not directly to anything you said.millerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05990852054891771988noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28755195.post-75100106406722522042008-10-11T13:28:00.000-06:002008-10-11T13:28:00.000-06:00A being that doesn't do anything is indistinguisha...<I>A being that doesn't do anything is indistinguishable from a being that doesn't exist; in other words, such a being is not existentially or ontologically meaningful.</I><BR/><BR/>You have obviously never met Comrade PhysioCat!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28755195.post-39332521324487653442008-10-11T05:11:00.000-06:002008-10-11T05:11:00.000-06:00Also... I show respect to everyone by assuming — u...Also... I show respect to everyone by assuming — until they demonstrate otherwise — they say what they mean and they mean what they say; that they are honest and sincere.<BR/><BR/>I too say what I mean, and I mean what I say. If you find that disrespectful, you're a fucking retard.Larry Hamelinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08788697573946266404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28755195.post-29128369616858086392008-10-11T04:46:00.000-06:002008-10-11T04:46:00.000-06:00the_world_in_my_eyes: Agnostics are individuals wh...<B>the_world_in_my_eyes</B>: <I>Agnostics are individuals who say 'Since God has not shown himself, we have no idea about whether he exists or not'. Fair enough.</I><BR/><BR/>Not fair enough. A god that does not show itself is no god at all.<BR/><BR/><I>An atheist can spend time and money spilling out his beliefs and waging war on religious people while an agnostic gets on with his work.</I><BR/><BR/>In case you haven't noticed — and you obviously haven't — it is the religious people who are waging war on <I>us</I>.<BR/><BR/><I>[Y]ou cannot convince people to leave their religion.</I><BR/><BR/>This is simply false.<BR/><BR/><B>miller</B>: <I>By saying agnostics believe X, you are almost implying that atheists cannot also believe X. In fact I've met lots of atheists who believe those same things.</I><BR/><BR/>I'm reporting on what atheists <I>typically</I> believe. I'm well aware that there are a lot of stupid atheists out there. I've said before that sometimes an atheist is someone with just one fewer stupid belief than a theist.<BR/><BR/>However... atheists — and especially skeptical, scientific atheists — do not <I>typically</I> hold the beliefs attributed to us by many so-called agnostics, nor are those beliefs necessary for or entail from atheism.Larry Hamelinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08788697573946266404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28755195.post-67318510930496535672008-10-11T00:51:00.000-06:002008-10-11T00:51:00.000-06:00the world,By saying agnostics believe X, you are a...the world,<BR/><BR/>By saying agnostics believe X, you are almost implying that atheists cannot also believe X. In fact I've met lots of atheists who believe those same things.millerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05990852054891771988noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28755195.post-10170785141748989502008-10-10T23:04:00.000-06:002008-10-10T23:04:00.000-06:00I think you should be a bit more respectful in you...I think you should be a bit more respectful in your blog. I do not have a religion as well but that does not mean I have a go at religious individuals and put myself at a higher intelligence level. Your article on agnostics was particularly hard to read because it shows a great ignorance on your part<BR/><BR/> Agnostics are individuals who say 'Since God has not shown himself, we have no idea about whether he exists or not'. Fair enough. And Agnostics are just people who do not worry about religion, they just do not have one. An atheist can spend time and money spilling out his beliefs and waging war on religious people while an agnostic gets on with his work. Who is the wiser one here? We agnostics have long since realised that religion will gradually kill itself and till then, you cannot convince people to leave their religion.the_world_in_my_eyeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10420191017401446737noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28755195.post-54663785147391423632008-10-10T16:57:00.000-06:002008-10-10T16:57:00.000-06:00As I've said before, I'm technically a strong agno...As I've said before, I'm technically a strong agnostic/weak atheist:<BR/>I don't know whether or not there was or is some sort of god(s) somewhere, but I don't go ahead and have faith in them anyway.<BR/><BR/>I don't think human beings have enough knowledge about the universe to declare whether or not there exists something we might call gods. That said, I have no problem self-identifying as an atheist in regard to any description of a god that has so far been proffered by religion; they're either logically incoherent or highly improbable, given present evidence...and oh so quiet and invisible, unlike their followers.Steelmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09612062887585525213noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28755195.post-38821493807990837292008-10-10T14:36:00.000-06:002008-10-10T14:36:00.000-06:00A being that doesn't do anything is indistinguisha...A being that doesn't do anything is indistinguishable from a being that doesn't exist; in other words, such a being is not existentially or ontologically meaningful.Larry Hamelinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08788697573946266404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28755195.post-90824076833152719582008-10-10T13:11:00.000-06:002008-10-10T13:11:00.000-06:00Well, not exactly. All of my experiences are wholl...Well, not exactly. All of my experiences are wholly consistent with the existence of omniscient omnipotent beings who simply choose to never ever do anything.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28755195.post-84457803397264106492008-10-10T10:52:00.000-06:002008-10-10T10:52:00.000-06:00It would be more rigorously scientific, Comrade, t...It would be more rigorously scientific, Comrade, to say that every moment of your life (and mine too) is <I>inconsistent</I> with the existence of any god(s), as defined in any meaningful sense.Larry Hamelinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08788697573946266404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28755195.post-71556544826710224792008-10-10T09:58:00.000-06:002008-10-10T09:58:00.000-06:00I am as certain as I can possibly be about anythin...I am as certain as I can possibly be about anything that there ain't no motherfucking gods. No way, no how. Every single fucking moment of every single fucking day of my fucking life, every single fucking thing that I experience is wholly consistent with the non-existence of any motherfucking gods.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28755195.post-12092861653571000282008-10-10T09:47:00.000-06:002008-10-10T09:47:00.000-06:00A similar extended internal exchange occurred when...A similar extended internal exchange occurred when I began reading this blog. Larry's forthright encouragement and refusal to split hairs led me to be true to myself and stop straddling the atheist/agnostic line. While I didn't know, and still don't know, I most certainly don't believe. Larry was right, I decided, and I started calling myself an atheist. I don't regret it for a moment.James F. Elliotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16747033407956667363noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28755195.post-56888307031125222672008-10-10T08:01:00.000-06:002008-10-10T08:01:00.000-06:00Persephone's use of "agnostic" does differ from mo...Persephone's use of "agnostic" does differ from modern usage but in line with the way for example Russell used the term.<BR/><BR/>Still, I agree that if you are an agnostic you should therefore be an atheist - it makes no sense to embrace a belief whose truth value is unknowable, unless such a belief is necessary in order to reason about the world at all (something that many have tried to argue about theism, but the arguments don't hold up).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28755195.post-27078708642788953022008-10-10T07:06:00.000-06:002008-10-10T07:06:00.000-06:00Persephone: An agnostic is not someone who *doesn'...<B>Persephone:</B> <I>An agnostic is not someone who *doesn't know* whether or not there is a god, but someone who believes that it is *not possible to know* whether or not there is a god.</I><BR/><BR/>This definition (more precisely <I>restricting</I> the definition so narrowly) is not in line with the use of "agnostic" applied to ordinary (nontheistic) ideas. It's also incoherent in this context.<BR/><BR/>How we know a statement to be true or false is intimately bound up in the <I>meaning</I> of the statement.<BR/><BR/>The only reason in principle one <I>cannot possibly</I> know the truth or falsity of a statement is that it is not truth-apt. Either it's emotive ("Yay!"), a metaphysical statement, or it's meaningless.<BR/><BR/>Reducing God talk to emotive or metaphysical statements does a lot of violence to ordinary language: Statement about God use the syntax of statements about facts and truth; ordinary, prosaic statements of fact are then susceptible to metaphysical or emotive interpretation, with devastating consequences.<BR/><BR/>Furthermore, interpreting God talk metaphysically just leads to vast metaphysical bloat.Larry Hamelinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08788697573946266404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28755195.post-43473224775412590062008-10-10T06:56:00.000-06:002008-10-10T06:56:00.000-06:00Elise: You shouldn't be embarrassed about being pe...Elise: You shouldn't be embarrassed about being persuaded. It's the mark of the skeptic and the intellectually mature.<BR/><BR/>Welcome to the club!Larry Hamelinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08788697573946266404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28755195.post-77698687332003718292008-10-10T05:27:00.000-06:002008-10-10T05:27:00.000-06:00But of *course* Christianity makes real demands on...But of *course* Christianity makes real demands on its followers! That's the *point*. One of the reasons that I am a Christian is because I believe that those demands are both reasonable and make me a better person.<BR/><BR/>I'm not sure I agree with the definition of 'agnostic' being used here, either. An agnostic is not someone who *doesn't know* whether or not there is a god, but someone who believes that it is *not possible to know* whether or not there is a god.<BR/><BR/>I am both a Christian and an agnostic: I am firmly convinced not only that there is a god but also that it is not possible to know (in the standard empirical use of the word) for certain one way or the other.Persephone Hazardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10989273445732367378noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28755195.post-18625271511799070672008-10-10T04:49:00.000-06:002008-10-10T04:49:00.000-06:00Ahem. Well this is embarrassing, but as per the l...Ahem. Well this is embarrassing, but as per the latest entry on <A HREF="http://wildeabandon.livejournal.com" REL="nofollow">my LJ</A>, I think you can score yourself a convert, albeit in a "straw that broke the camel's back and probably would have happened anyway" sort of way. <BR/><BR/>That said, I've heard similar things expressed by other^W Christians who are far less shaky in their faith than I was.wildeabandonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03683064568234595192noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28755195.post-85888173736317557582008-10-09T22:25:00.000-06:002008-10-09T22:25:00.000-06:00Elise: It's nice to see a Christian honestly admit...Elise: It's nice to see a Christian honestly admit that the religion makes real demands on its practitioners, demands that don't make sense if the claims of the Bible are not literally true.<BR/><BR/>Vinny: You've explained a very sensible reason to call yourself an agnostic.Larry Hamelinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08788697573946266404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28755195.post-61515411908987603302008-10-09T18:55:00.000-06:002008-10-09T18:55:00.000-06:00It's very simple: If you think 100% of human God t...<I>It's very simple: If you think 100% of human God talk is lies and bullshit, and you object to lies and bullshit, then call yourself an atheist.</I><BR/><BR/>I think that much of it is lies and bullshit, but I think that some of it is mythology and I am not convinced that mythology is necessarily such a terrible thing as long as people understand its limitations. <BR/><BR/>Although I consider myself an agnostic, my son insists that I really am an atheist. He might be right but it is not a declaration I am prepared to make without studying the issues more carefully. The problem is that there is so much I would like to know about history, economics, sociology, and psychology that figuring out whether or not I am an atheist isn’t a very high prioritiy.Vinnyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08955726889682177434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28755195.post-5164654741112458542008-10-09T11:21:00.000-06:002008-10-09T11:21:00.000-06:00Well yes, but since you're not a theoretical physi...Well yes, but since you're not a theoretical physicist in your day job that's easy to do. When it's a religion that makes demands about how you live your life then either you acceed to those demands, being a de facto theist, or you don't, being a defacto atheist.wildeabandonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03683064568234595192noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28755195.post-58562297431061830942008-10-09T10:58:00.000-06:002008-10-09T10:58:00.000-06:00Personally, if I found the reasons for belief (or ...Personally, if I found the reasons for belief (or disbelief) only marginally more convincing than the alternative, I would simply refuse to take a position.<BR/><BR/>For example, I'm profoundly agnostic in the sense of undecided about the metaphysical/ontological interpretation of Quantum Mechanics, even though I find the Transactional Interpretation most intuitively appealing.Larry Hamelinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08788697573946266404noreply@blogger.com