tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28755195.post8619134680108651583..comments2023-09-25T04:26:51.568-06:00Comments on The Barefoot Bum: Dictionary atheistsLarry Hamelinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08788697573946266404noreply@blogger.comBlogger1125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28755195.post-22693712176760546052011-02-26T14:13:15.770-07:002011-02-26T14:13:15.770-07:00Surely definitions exist expressly so people can a...Surely definitions exist expressly so people can agree about what is being discussed. I would argue that while PZ has a point that most atheists are so for more diverse reasons than an arbitrarily chosen position on the existence of gods, it is still an unfair generalization to suggest that atheism <i>must</i> involve deeper ideas. I have encountered a fair few atheists who believe in many other kinds of bogus crap like reincarnation, karma, ghosts etc. Atheists who have no understanding or respect for the kinds of metrics PZ is talking about.<br />When you want to discuss similarities that exist between sub-groups of atheists that is fine but trying to invest "atheism" with more than it is doesn't seem like the best way to do it. This would be my approach to the discussion in its broadest sense anyway.<br /><br />I took PZ to be speaking in the context of that sub-group (the kind of folk he generally meets at the various gatherings he attends. In that context, where you are amongst the particular sub-group in question, the generalisation is fine. Perhaps we need a term to describe people who derive their atheism from the kind of thinking PZ is alluding to? <br /><br />Atheism is as narrow as its definition. I would suggest that PZ isn't just talking about atheism though. He is clearly talking about an evidential, scientific approach to reality. Atheism is just the "lack of belief in gods". I don't think there is anything more to "atheism". That is not to say that there is not more to the community whose principle common ground is atheism. In my experience many atheists tend to be evidentially focused, scientifically minded people. This is definitely not universally true. Less and less so as time goes on, in my experience. People are not scientifically minded, evidence respecting sceptics because they are atheists, usually the reverse. It might be better to elaborate on these qualities rather than try to invest a single idea with all of this and more. In other words atheism is a single common bi-product amongst many for this kind of thinking. Atheism is a facet of something greater rather than encompassing more than what it is. As I say, in the context of other atheists the implication is fine but it might be a bad habit to start insisting that being an atheist means you subscribe to a whole list of other ideas or traits. If we take that tack, saying you are an atheist will be like saying you're a Christian. You’ll have to spend the first few minutes of any conversation uncovering the presumptions any particular atheist holds about what it means to be atheist.<br /><br />For some atheists the “<i>why</i> they find themselves comfortable with that label”, does not “always lie in a set of sometimes unexamined working metrics for how the world works.”<br />Atheism for many may just be the revolution du jour. There are many crap reasons to be an atheist. You yourself have endorsed the position in the past that atheists often just “hold one less stupid idea”. This seems to be increasingly true in the atheist community to me. I suppose a drop in standards is inevitable as any idea is endorsed by larger and larger groups. <br /><br />I think agreeing or disagreeing with PZ on this is a matter of context. If you are surrounded by atheists who by context are the kinds of atheists PZ is alluding to then I think that certain assumptions can be made without the need to get anal about the definition. In a broader context though, I think we should be careful about assuming too much. It is definitely a mistake to invoke words like <i>always</i> in assuming the process that produces an atheist.The Celtic Chimphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04570106602777322387noreply@blogger.com